As those of you who live here know, I am a relative non-dater. I’ve always been able to do without, and unlike some RoboDaters I know, I’ve never been one for a relationship either. When the few have happened in the past, they’ve developed organically and they’ve been good – the very small number of men I have dated remain good men and I wouldn’t trade the experience of getting to know them for anything in this world.
It’s never been about quantity, but rather quality, and it most definitely has never been about a need to fill space and time in my life. That I am giving you my loser advice is just so that you may have a little food for thought this evening.
Recently, a girlfriend of mine started dating a new man. He is, for all intents and purposes, a good man. An honest man; a ‘stand-up’ kind of guy who doesn’t play games or open doors that he never plans to address ever again. He is the kind of boy you hope your best friend will become acquainted with…
But – and I write ‘but’ with hesitation – he has, according to her, one very serious flaw and it is that: He spends much too much time with his friends and he has made a point of making clear that his friends are more important to him than she is at the moment. He’s also made clear that should things change in the shape of their relationship, then that too will change. (I wrote ‘according to her’ because they have only been dating a few weeks and this short period does not, should not, can not, and will never trump the years of friendship that any individual has built, nurtured, nourished and maintained. Male or female, there are priorities; friends are among those priorities.)
Look. This guy isn’t spending 6 nights a week with his boys in bars (and if he were, then just fkn walk already and stop complaining; that you choose to remain in said situation is your problem and not his and only the best of humanity behaves in non-typical fashion. The sad reality is that most both men and women will try to take a mile where you offer an inch; taking advantage of one another is a brutal reality that we each face every day…the only thing you can do is ensure that you do your best to avoid doing that to someone when opportunity presents itself (and it always will)).
What he is, is he is spending an ample amount of time with his new girlfriend and he is also spending an ample amount of time with his friends. Because – unless the scenario shifts into one of true love and commitment – the new boyfriend / girlfriend exist on the outside of the circle. His friends are the circle closest to him (and if he is a decent man, then so too is his family) and you exist beyond that. That changes if and when he chooses to change it, or it may simply change on its own (read: organically).
If you have a problem with that reality, then you need to find a different man.
Personally, I think it’s pretty sexy when a man is fiercely loyal to his friends because that means that should there one day be a shift in your relationship, then he will be as fiercely loyal to you as he currently is to his friends.
This is not to say that should there be a crisis in your life, he tells you he can’t see you or talk to you or be there for you because he’s playing football with his friends that night. Naturally, there are limits (and if you’re dating a boy who would do that, then again: the problem is yours and you need to cut your losses).
Almost as importantly as the above, you should remember that his friends – just as your friends have and continue to do so – have contributed to the man that he has become. They have contributed to the man you may one day fall in love with, and you need to respect that. You need to respect them and their presence in his life. (Another caveat is that: if they turn out to be shits who don’t in turn respect you or your presence in his life, then that’s a whole other scenario you must eventually address. But a strong man, a good man who is in love with you – if that turns out to be the case – would never stand for anyone disrespecting you, just as you should never stand for anyone disrespecting the man you love. Loving one another must amount to seeing and treating one another as giants (and letting the imperfections of one another be a part of that ‘giant’esse, since no one is perfect).
Now. If you operate on the reality that as soon as he walks into your world, you immediately do away with your friends and wait wait wait wait for him to call you so that you may get out there and do something, then you’re not a very nice friend to your own circle and if I were a man, I’d watch for that behaviour and wonder how and why, if you can’t be loyal to your own circle, I would ever expect you to be so loyal to me. Unfair as it may be, it’s a gut reaction that can’t be denied.
Ultimately, you are not a priority until you are. And when you are, then you need to still respect the importance of his friends and shouldn’t be a jealous super freak of them; imagine what you would call your best friend’s new partner if he didn’t want you coming over…or taking a weekend away with your best friend…or heading out for a night. Imagine what you would call him? I know what I would call him…and it’s not a very pleasant thing. Don’t be that person and get a hobby instead.
The euphoria of a new relationship can not equal the denial of existing ones, no matter how exciting and loving and intriguing your new relationship may be. Because should this new relationship fall apart, it is your closest circle of friends who will gather you from the dirty floor and tuck you in every night until you heal & heel. Remember that, always.
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Note 1: The above is not to say that a year into the relationship, if there’s been no change or shift in the dynamic between you and him and his friends, you shouldn’t walk – the decision is yours and you lay out the groundwork accordingly in terms of what you’re willing to “tolerate”. Just consider the above a perspective that’s all too often lost when you are watching romantic movies and reading romance novels. Keep it in mind when you’re getting to know a new man and are existing within that awkward state of ‘dating’ when you have no idea wtf is going on. Should and when you have enough, then cut your losses and walk away without hesitation and without once looking back and remember that that is the very definition of grace.
Note 2: None of the above stands for a hurtful man who uses his friends to hurt you…who goes out of his way to point out that you’re not as important as his friends in a passive aggressive way. That’s just an asshole, plain and simple. All forms of passive aggression are shit and shouldn’t be allowed into your life (unless you’re an asshole, too). The above only stands for the good men you meet > you know who they are, and those of them reading this will also know who they are…
14 Comments:
Anonymous Thomas said…
I’ve always appreciated your ability to see both sides of the coin, Maha. You have a very good balance and any man would be lucky to engage with your mind in a relationship. All too often I’ve had to face this same dilema at the beginning of relationships and they always fail because it’s difficult to get the above points across. Maybe I will print this up and hand it to the next woman I date
For a woman who rarely dates, you have an ability to speak right to the heart of the matters of relationships. Another well written and well thought out piece. Thank you.
Thomas
Tue Dec 02, 06:03:00 PM
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Anonymous lily said…
This is fucking FIERCE! I agree with Thomas. I think the reason you’re able to see away from the shit is because you’re not a RoboDater (LOL!!! What a way to put it!!). I gotta admit though that I’ve been guilty of this on MANY AN OCCASION. I will keep coming backt o read this to remind myself to fucking cool my shit when I have to. Love your posts on rules and relationships! -lily
Tue Dec 02, 06:31:00 PM
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Anonymous Anonymous said…
Fierce! You’re excellent and you’re hot.
Paul
Sat Dec 06, 11:14:00 AM
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Blogger Leo said…
Great post Maha! I wish all men and women are as objective and mature as you are. Having said that, do you think that we are usually way more objective about issues when it is not about us?
Tue Dec 09, 10:51:00 PM
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Blogger just a girl said…
Two fierces, I love it
Leo, to answer your Q: Absolutely! Of course we’re a lot more objective when we’re talking outside of ourselves…also, I think we become more objective when we refuse to start from a place of negativity (e.g. assuming the worst), and when we take a step back (if we’re in the situation in Q).
What do you think? (& welcome – I believe you’re new here to commenting!)
maha
Tue Dec 09, 10:54:00 PM
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Blogger Leo said…
Well, I do believe that, in a new dating experience, the more you like the person, the more difficult it is to be objective. The more we can keep our excitement and aspirations in check, the better the chances of this experiences to “organically” develop.
I also believe that, in most cases, we will not be able to recognize a place or should I say a position of negativity unless we’re really disciplined in the way we approach new dating experiences which is not easy at all based on my experience! how about you? do you have the ability to recognize and then act on a position of negativity?
By the way, although this is my first comment on your blog, I am not new to it. You can say that I was a distant admirer of your blog and decided to change that. Keep up the good work Maha.
Wed Dec 10, 12:36:00 AM
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Blogger just a girl said…
That’s really interesting, because I tend to believe that the more you like someone, the more likely you are to be objective. The trick being, rising above the static of non-objectivity and keeping your eye on the ball (in this case, that you like someone and see honest potential there). I say this because the less you like someone, the less you’ll engage, you know?
I can, beyond a shadow of a doubt, recognise when I am starting from a place of negativity – but getting to this was out of sheer discipline and introspection re my own behaviour / thought patterns.
Also, I’m pretty certain that it’s come about because I’ve watched others wreck completely the potential of something *because* they acted from a position of negativity rather than one of positive energy.
By no means do I think it’s easy; and I do believe that’s in fact much easier to run than it is to stick it out. It’s much easier to incline oneself to negativity than it is to the good > but with greater discipline and time, it becomes the norm…
Thanks for your kind words, Leo! ![]()
Maha
Wed Dec 10, 11:31:00 AM
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Blogger Leo said…
Well, I guess I was getting ahead of myself when I was writing my last comment. I guess it depends where you’re starting from! To elaborate, if I really like a woman I’m dating, then that means that things are going well, in fact so well, that I may get kinda blinded and miss some of the early warning signs (and usually there are some that need to be.. umm.. probed!) hence I said it is more difficult to be objective. If things are ok (not great but just OK), then I find it much easier to be objective.
I also believe that women are usually more cautious than men when approaching a new relationship with a potential suitor and sometimes, they just over do it (or may be most of the times) and end up blowing it! this, by the way, may in many ways explain why your friend has got all her alarm bells ringing for something that looks like a great opportunity to me! What is better than someone’s friends to know more details about anybody? Don’t you think?
I do agree with you about the fact that we usually opt out of a good prospect rather than stay the course and see how it boils out just because it is easier. I think life is getting too complicated and so are we.
Thu Dec 11, 01:33:00 AM
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Blogger just a girl said…
Leo – I think the key with ‘early warning signs’ is to not be blind to them, but to see them and then file them, if you will. I believe at the beginning of anything new, there’s always that crazy excitement and you only want to see the best of someone > so you tend to ignore the flags. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that the flags are usually pretty potent and they rain poison later on.
Maybe the key is for us to not delude ourselves into thinking that every person we date is “the one” and then that take off all pressure and lets you get to know someone in a safe-free zone?
I find that the flags are always there, always apparent to the eye and it’s just a matter of what you do with them that affects the course of you – and in any relationship, friendship or otherwise, the only thing we can control is ourselves. Two people, two different perspectives and two different approaches and hopes / dreams that have to be respected. That’s *not* to say you aren’t allowed to want and then to ask for compromise – the greatest relationships can only be built on compromise of both parties…not on the needs and wants of only one party.
As for women ‘over doing it’ and blowing it. I’m not sure I know what that means, but it doesn’t sound like a balanced statement – in general, women are raised to uphold social relationships. We’re the ones that represent the glue that holds relationships together (too many studies done about this; it is merely a symptom of societal interraction) > so perhaps the over-doing it you reference is an attempt to not let anything fall apart? This isn’t to say that (and I have seen this) I’ve seen women behave in the most psychotic fashion if they don’t receive what they believe they are entitled to – as is the case in the above story. But with these women, the flags are huge and apparent from day one. And quite possibly, some men thrive on this sort of weirdness, you know?
To ‘blow’ a relationship, as to make it work, takes two. Always. If a man is uncomfortable with something, he needs to man-up and say so. If behavior doesn’t change, then the relationship can come to an end…
Re opting out, I’ve seen men RUN from the potential of something brilliant because they’re too scared to handle it. Most importantly, they run from anything that could pose a threat to their current state of regularity. Human nature dictates that we are creatures of habit, and few of us challenge that regularly; I do believe that men may be more inclined to stay the course of regularity than women…or so that seems to be what I’ve observed over the course of watching relaationships around me. Again: This is not to say women don’t do this, too…with women, though I’ve often seen that they don’t want to leave the comfort of an existing (albeit shit) relationship as it represents a weird security blanket of sorts…and the damage that does to someone’s heart and spirit is absolutely brutal, I think…
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Fri Dec 12, 10:15:00 AM
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Anonymous Kelly_steeves said…
You both touch on so many points, it’s quite a mouthful to try and comment afterwards. Usually, I wouldn’t even try actually. But I think there is something fundamental missing from the debate. Hope. I like to hope that not every girl looks at they’re dating as ‘the one’ immediately, but for a candidate to be worthy of dating in the first place, the potential hope that they might be needs to be there. And, it is that same hopeful thinking that sometimes makes it so that early warning signals are overlooked… not ignored, but simply rationalized and often to cause a small irritation in one’s stomach of a source not always immediately known, only to be pulled out of the files after the relationship is over as a sign of obvious incompatibility. (At least girls do this well, I admire how men (I think) can manage not to do this after a relationship since this after-work does tend to damper the memory of an otherwise OK relationship, not love, but not bad either)
Nevermind all the early banter. Hope is what is keeping your friend interested despite her fears of perhaps not ever being let into his life. And hope will also hold out for her that if he never mixes his friends and her, that she will at least be remembered as a respectful, mature woman– even as she may or may not gracefully leave. So if it is looked at in this light, she can’t lose. The only thing she can lose is her time if she isn’t convinced that he has potential to be her one.
And this idea of hope makes thinking objectively a lot easier in dating too. If you can put it all out on the line, even if you lose, you don’t lose in that even if any guy doesn’t respect it and perhaps even takes advantage of it, it will make it easy to have a good reason to leave right away.
Bah– I am not a blogging type. This probably makes no sense… but hey, you recommended I read this Maha, so at least I have the hope you think I care enough to try!
Fri Dec 12, 01:44:00 PM
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Blogger just a girl said…
STEEVES! I didn’t even know you had a blog. I have to make this short as I am away – I agree with your sentiment 100%. Hope is key to *everything* in this world. All forms of relationships, too…
Hope, yes. But hope with conscience. Hope with awareness, rather than hope built on ignorance. I can clarify later more if you wish; I am on the run.
Love to Shawn. xxx
Sat Dec 13, 11:08:00 AM
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Anonymous Naomi said…
When I read your original post, Maha, I was reminded of a situation where I was (repeatedly) abandoned by a (supposedly close) friend every time she started dating someone.
This RoboDater behaved exactly as your girlfriend wishes her new guy would: as soon as she met someone new, she declared him the love of her life and made it clear to him and the world that he mattered more than anyone else. I wouldn’t see her or hear from her for days, weeks, or months, depending on how long the relationship lasted. She proceeded to spend day and night with her new dream guy until the relationship imploded (often, I’m guessing, as a result of too much pressure and spending too much time together).
Then she would reappear in my life, with no apologies for her long absence. Sometimes this tendency resulted in shockingly bad friendship behavior, even beyond the obvious. Once, when I was in town from across the country, to visit her and other friends, she opted out of seeing me because of a guy she had met THE NIGHT BEFORE.
OK, I guess I’m still a bit upset about that. And I’m not friends with this woman anymore. I wonder why.
My point is, do you really want to date someone who drops lifelong friends like a hot potato for someone they barely know? Of course not! I guess this is all to agree with you, Maha.
Both these tendencies are signs of flightiness:
1) The tendency to declare love and devotion within a day/week/month of meeting someone;
2) The tendency to prioritize the adrenalin-rush of a new fling over the people who truly care about you.
I hope your friend realizes that she’s got a guy with lots of potential on her hands.
Sat Dec 13, 01:22:00 PM
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Blogger just a girl said…
This is great- my comment actually went through! I posted from my BBerry and wasn’t sure if it worked!!!!
Naomi – will be back later to respond. xox (I think you mentioned this girl previously to me…)
Sun Dec 14, 12:32:00 PM
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Anonymous Anonymous said…
Speaking from a psychological behavioural and societal perspective of why I think this scenario OFTEN occurs among men and women…
There are unstable people out there to meet, but they are the minority, most just fall into poor behavioural patterns and the problem is miscommunication of expectation . And we must add to that cultural expectations because that is often forgotten and do differ.
When asking any man why a relationship didn’t work with so and so …almost all of them refer to some kind of neurosis or psychosis. When I inquire about why the relationship ended, almost all claim the woman was manipulative and controlling. Clinically, this can’t be true,
it is more likely a problem of perspective and stereotypes of women.
And not some deep psychological condition. Many posts commented on the societal expectation of woman and in that I am in full agreement.
There is more to this, then a crazed women.
I have been in an unhealthy relationship which seriously affected my friendships with other people, and have been accused of this instability myself so I did find the post very interesting. I have a number of friends who have also been accused of the same thing from various men that they have dated, and well, I vouch for them, as I have know them intimately. Most people have fears and insecurities, they can be overcome with proper communication.
The dating world is very interesting, but when you meet the right person,
I am guessing this scenario would not happen. When the chemistry is there, there will be a natural shift in the friend relationship balance, which will change again in time, once the novelty wears off.
Mon Dec 15, 02:23:00 PM